When you start with a full-fledged service agency, then add products into the mix, there is a fine balance you need to achieve. Rohan shares with us his story behind WisdmLabs and how they have met this challenge.
A Chat with Rohan Thakare with WisdmLabs
In episode 52, Brad Williams and I chat with Rohan about:
- How they started early in the WooCommerce space and focused on that niche
- Branching into the LMS (Learning Management Systems) space
- The current circumstances and the growth of LMS
- What kind of impact creating content and being consistent with their blog has had
- How to balance as a full agency while also creating, selling and supporting plugins
- What has made their bestselling plugin a bestseller
Thanks to our sponsors
Rohan, and his company WisdmLabs has been in the eCommerce/WooCommerce space for quite some time. We start the conversation around that move and how their initial focus on eCommerce played out.
From there we dive a bit into LMSs. This was the next step for Rohan’s company as they entered that space, which has continually grown over the last several years. His reason was a mix of what they had received when offering the services, as well as a love of education.
We also chat a bit about the current state of affairs and how he has seen this impact in the LMS ecosystem, as well as some sage advice of where it is going.
For some time, he has been adamant about offering useful content to educate clients, potential clients and visitors to their site. Although their consistency has paid in a marketing sense, he also feels strongly about giving people solid education in the space where they can share their own experiences and expertise.
Then we swing into the big challenge of any full fledged agency who provides services: adding products to the mix. They have learned lessons through the process and Rohan shares the importance of separating those two elements of your business.
Lastly, we discover what are their bestselling plugins and Rohan shares the reasons why they have succeeded.
Where to find Rohan on the web
Yes, this the transcript. But not in the traditional sense, transcribed word for word. We do not speak as we write. Often the flow of transcribed content is hard to follow. So I have taken it a few steps further by seriously editing, at times, the conversation and even using my editorial freedom to clarify some points. So enjoy.
Bob: Hey everybody, BobWP, and we are back with Do the Woo episode 52. I am joined by my guest, or I should say co-host, the one and only, Brad Williams.
Brad: I'm like a guest that won't go away. I'm your permanent guest, Bob. It's fine, I see where I sit. It's okay. I'm doing good. How are you doing, Bob?
Bob: I'm doing good, except my brain obviously is not working well this morning, but other than that. Yeah, I just expect you to keep me on track during this entire conversation since I've already blown it out of the box here.
Brad: Those are some lofty expectations, but I will do my best.
Bob: Yeah, pressure's on. Yeah. Well, pretty excited about this particular episode. I have with me Rohan from WisdmLabs. I've known about them for quite some time, and written about them, and made some relationships there. And I thought it was time to get them on, because they are quite involved with the WooCommerce space. Rohan, how are you doing? And welcome to the show.
Rohan: Thanks, Bob. Thanks, Brad. And thanks for having me on the show.
Bob: Cool. Well, we always start with this question, which gives you the opportunity to tell everybody what you do with WooCommerce, it's how do you Do the Woo? So what do you bring to the WooCommerce space?
What Does WisdmLabs Do in the WooCommerce Space?
Rohan: So, Bob, we essentially are a WordPress development agency and products shop. We have a hundred-member team here in India. And we have two focus areas, one is eLearning, and other is eCommerce. When it comes to eCommerce, it's only WooCommerce that we do. So we provide services and do custom development for clients. And we also have a small portfolio of our own plugins. We've had our plugins for almost six or seven years now, starting with a free plugin that we did a long time back. So, typically services and product development both, and products in WooCommerce.
Bob: Excellent. Well, I'm totally off my game here because I dove in without thanking my sponsors. And I'm going to segue back to the sponsors, and then we're going to learn more about the journey that you took with your business to get into the WooCommerce space.
So I want to thank WooCommerce.com, our community sponsor. Then MyWorks QuickBooks Sync for WooCommerce, a great way to automatically sync between WooCommerce and QuickBooks. So, if you're using QuickBooks, check it out. And then WP Security Audit Log, a comprehensive activity log of the changes shop managers and customers make on your shop. Also, back just a few episodes ago, we had a chance to chat with the owner and the founder of WP Security Audit Log, Robert, and I would suggest you might want to tune into that episode to learn a little bit more about how logs can help you.
Moving into WooCommerce
So now we're going to swing back into the conversation. One of the things we always ask, either me or the co-host, as Brad is this time, is how did WisdmLabs move into the WooCommerce space?
Rohan: About eight years ago when we started, we were a boutique shop working out of India. And so the most obvious choice without any destination for a services company was to look at the freelancing platforms. At that time we had the likes of Elance and other freelancing platforms, and realized when we were actually starting on those platforms, a lot of people were actually asking for websites, but they needed a lot of functionality. We were drawn to WordPress, because from my earlier association with my earlier companies, I was actually setting up WordPress websites.
So I was familiar with WordPress, but there was also this talk about Joomla and Drupal. And there always used to be those reports that would come out every year where you look who has the highest market share. And WordPress was steadily gaining ground against Joomla and Drupal, right?
So I realized that WordPress had to be the platform that we had to work on. And as we dove deeper into those platforms, we realized a lot of customer queries were centered around eCommerce. And WooCommerce had just started there. I think it had formed out of Jigoshop around that time, and people were wanting to run websites and sell things through those websites, especially a lot of small merchants. With the plugin community, the ecosystem was not that developed then. So a lot of people were asking a lot of questions, because it wasn't included in the base plugin.
This opened up opportunities at that point in time and we realized that if we could delve deeper into this and specialize in this, then yes, we will get noticed as a specialty shop, doing only eCommerce at that point. Because eLearning was not in the portfolio then. So that's how we got drawn towards eCommerce, and it's been like that since those days.
Brad: Yeah, I love the story where you're in the services world, which as you know I am as well—client services, building out sites— and you're really narrowing your focus. Not just on the platform like WordPress, which we both work in and specialize in, but narrowing it even further into eCommerce and specifically, WooCommerce. It certainly makes marketing easier, that's for sure.
The Move to Focus on eCommerce
Because you have a message, you're promoting and getting it out there versus one of the challenges we always have, which is, we do WordPress sites. But what does that mean? It could be anything. It could be a blog, it could be an enterprise level, a massive learning management system, like some of the LMSs you work with. So I would imagine you've seen some good success once you started focusing specifically on eCommerce. But I'm curious if you saw that immediately. Did you feel like it was a risky move at the time when you started putting your sites strictly on eCommerce versus just anything that came in the door?
Rohan: We really had nothing then, so there was nothing to lose.
Brad: Words of wisdom.
Rohan: Coming from a digital marketing background I soon realized that if you're going to go generic, just talking about WordPress doesn't really make sense. WordPress can be anything to anyone. It depends on how they're approaching WordPress. If it's an eCommerce merchant, then an eCommerce store. If it's a teacher, then maybe a learning platform. If it's someone who's arranging events, then an events platform. Right? So I realized that by specializing we are able to talk about it and gather a lot of staffing.
So we invested a lot in our website and the content part. And we've been doing that since then. In fact we have around a hundred thousand visitors coming in every month ,even today. So when we were focused on creating content, it had to have a theme. And I realized because we were doing projects, it was easy because we were having experiences talking to clients, understanding their problems. So writing these things on our blog made it very easy. Once we started putting that kind of content out, we realized that people were coming back with similar queries. We found our match, and it just continued from there.
Brad: that's great. You came in from that digital marketing background, so you knew this going into it, right? You had a plan where I think a lot of us stumble into it. We don't have that marketing background necessarily, which is why we dig into this, because we like building sites, right? We like working on the web, we like creating really interesting things. We get drawn to open source. So having more of a plan coming into it clearly has worked well for you.
As you've grown your business around WooCommerce and now also working with learning management systems, which with the current situation going on is huge right now.
Given the State Today, Let’s Talk About LMS
Brad: eLearning. It’s a big business because so many people are trying to pivot and figure out how to take a traditional brick-and-mortar business online, or just extend their business online, or completely pivot to online as many of us are doing at home. And obviously the world's changing. So maybe you could talk about LMSs a little bit and how you dug into that, and where you see that going given the state of where we're at today.
Rohan: We started with LMSs because there was a client who approached us and said, “I want to sell courses, but I want to teach them. And I want to run that along with the job site.” I was like, oh man, you want to do too many things. So we started delving into it and figuring out the solution, because we had never ventured out of WooCommerce till then. So the only thing we knew was WordPress, WooCommerce and a few more plugins that were generic. But this client was adamant about it being an eLearning site. Then we searched and stumbled across LearnDash, which had already launched. And it looked like a very rickety plugin.
But we said, well, it would probably do the job and we would have to do some customizations. We did that project, it was a very big one. And obviously, we started writing about that project. Very soon after that, we were having inquiries. So it became a natural progression. And as we grew, somewhere at the end, somewhere in the bottom of my heart, I also feel that being associated with education is very noble as compared to just saying that I earn money. So when you are working in a very democratized way of eLearning, especially given the open source for us in our ecosystem, it felt like you are empowering a lot of people out there who are creating or educating great minds.
So there was that emotional element, plus we were seeing a lot of interest. So why not really deep dive into this? We ended up creating a lot of plugins also in the LearnDash ecosystem. So today we have a good amount of plugins there, and a significant amount of business coming from that segment of our business.
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Brad: Yeah, we've done some pretty extensive work with LMSs and eLearning, and it's it's fun. I know everyone might have a different look on building out systems like that, but I think it's interesting. It's fun and in a sense it's so unique to the client that you're working with. It doesn't mean the platforms or the plugins you're using are necessarily unique, but the way you configure it, it's never the same from one client to the next. And I think as engineers, developers the idea of problem solving, it's a different type of problem solving, but you're still solving problems, which is interesting and fun.
We've built some pretty interesting systems. I've seen other ones that people do and I'm sure your team has built some pretty amazing stuff. And we are looking at the bigger picture. Really, the sky's the limit. I feel like many institutions, whether it's schools, corporations or enterprise, they are re-evaluating what can they do online. I think they're realizing that it's not as big of a lift as they might think it is. I know there's some massive systems out there that you can pay tons of money every single month, and have access to. And those work great, but those are a deal breaker for many people just because the cost is so prohibitive.
So you come to something like WordPress, you look at WooCommerce, you look at some of the different LMS integrations, and you can have a robust system for a fraction of the cost. It's not necessarily ongoing besides maybe basic maintenance support and some pretty minimal licensing costs around those plugins and services.
The Growth of LMS in Current Times
I feel like there's just a lot of opportunity in the eLearning space right now, specifically because of everything that's going on. And once we're past this and hopefully it's sooner rather than later, although it's not going to go back to the exact same way it was, everyone's going to have an eLearning contingency plan, especially the schools, to fall back on. I guess my point that I'm trying to get to in a long way, is how have you seen that side of the house grow in terms of the services since you've started offering it on LMSs? Has it been growing pretty steadily? Have you gotten significantly more requests just in the past couple months versus the past year or two? I'm curious what you're seeing on your side in terms of the LMS growth.
Rohan: The last couple of months has been a delusion. Traffic-wise, inquiries-wise and also production-wise, because everyone is waking up to the new normal, right? They can't leave their homes. They have to still get their work done and education is very important. School districts are clamoring to get to something that they can hold on to. A lot of training organizations who are doing things like blended learning, or in classroom trainings, suddenly they have to move online. Companies have to continue to operate and they have to educate their people. They have to get them on task.
Everyone needs a good platform for eLearning. And the thing is that, like you said, Brad, a lot of platforms exist out there, but a lot of them could be extremely complicated, especially for people who are uninitiated. And that's why they're looking for simpler solutions. Things that are more manageable and maintainable. So on that front of the business in the last two months we've seen on the traffic front, it's been around 40 to 45% jump. Just on the traffic front. So it's a significant interest out there in the world for this.
Brad: Yeah, I know you mentioned as part of the marketing and effort to grow awareness of your company, you're blogging, which I'm a big fan of. I think naturally when you first started getting into WordPress, at least in the early days, it was a blog, right? So you got into it because you're interested in blogging or maybe you're helping somebody with a blog, and obviously it's grown a lot since then. But at the core of WordPress, it's just a great content management system. It's a great tool to write content, and it's literally the easiest thing you can do from a marketing standpoint. It's sweat equity, right? It's not necessarily a cost unless you're hiring a writer. And that's exactly how we got started at WebDevStudios.
If you go back on our blog to 2008, I was just writing about anything that I thought was interesting just to get some content out there. And it didn't even necessarily have anything to do with what we were doing. I'm not suggesting that now, but it was just to get content on the site. Then when we really started to narrow our focus into WordPress, we just started writing about everything we were learning. Things we were building, events we were attending, and it's always been a big part of our company to make sure that we have a very active blog. To make sure our developers and our entire team contributes to it in some way, because it's a good way to share knowledge, to be thought leaders, to get leads and just to help out.
How a Blog Makes an Impact
I don't expect everybody that reads our blog is going to hire us. But it sounds like that's actually been a very good marketing strategy for you as well. I like the way your blog is set up where you can just go right into the type of content you want, WordPress, eCommerce, eLearning, and LearnDash. So I would imagine when you talk about traffic being up, I would expect the majority of that traffic is probably coming in through your blog. Is that true?
Rohan: Yes, absolutely. In fact when it comes to the blog, the idea is not just to use it as a marketing tool, it is to disseminate the education, the learnings that we've had. As developers, we tend to write a lot about the things that we've worked on. So there are in-depth articles about doing a particular thing this way, and then we will share cool snippets and things like that. So I see a lot of people loving the content for that reason. And I know that most of them would never be our customer unless they are looking for something similar. But still it's fine, because you feel that is one way of contributing, right? And so I'm happy that we do that, and we've be doing that so far.
Brad: Yeah, there's just a lot of wins to doing that. Like you said, thought leaders in marketing, it puts you out there too. When you're looking to hire talent and recruit as someone you might think, yeah, I remember them. They had a great article that really helped me out. That I learned a lot from. So I'm a big proponent of that. Plus it forces you to continue to eat your own dog food, if you will. Continue to use WordPress for what it's meant for, which is creating content at its core.
And a lot of times, especially those of us running businesses or as things grow, we get away from actually using the software that we're selling and talking about all the time. We stop using it, because we get busy. So I think it's good to remind yourself of that and go back and use the tool. Experience it as your users experience it, and be comfortable with it. It ultimately will help your business: communication, sales, and everything across the board. So I really like what you're doing over there.
Products and Services: the Balance
I do want to touch on the product side, because you're one of those companies that are a bit of a unicorn in a sense because you're doing services and you're doing products, and both very well. I think that's a tough thing to nail. I've been trying to do it for 10 years, and we still haven't figured it out. So I'd love to know how do you balance the services and the client services side, with the product side. Are they completely separate teams? Do they not talk to each other? Is it just people bouncing back and forth, because at the end of the day, the struggle we've always had is when there's client issues, it's a client issue and it's all hands on deck. We've got to fix it. But a lot of times the first thing you drop is the product side. So I'm curious how you've set that up to be really successful.
Rohan: I would say we are moderately successful. I've been following you and your profile is very similar to ours. I understand where you're coming from. So the thing is, we learned it the hard way. People are thinking, well I want to launch and this is going to be the next big thing in the world. Well those were the kind of thoughts we had when we actually completed some of the services projects, which we thought could become good plugins. In fact, the first plugin we wrote for WooCommerce, that was the Product Enquiry plugin and we have a free version of it. That's the version that we launched six years ago.
It did come from a client requirement, because they wanted to run a non-selling site, a catalog only site. And we did something where we were able to capture inquiries. And we thought, this seems to be a really nifty plug n, and a great way to figure out how to get leads. So we said, fine, let's do a plugin. And we did the plugin, and just like that, we had a few more plugins coming in. We kept on increasing our portfolio only to realize later on that doing this work between services and products is very, very difficult. Like you said, when there's a problem everyone rushes to the client, and then product is taking a backseat. We realized after stumbling across that problem over and over again, we would need to figure this out. It's not going to work like this. You have to understand that this is a separate business and service is a separate business.
Let's separate the teams out, let them talk at their knowledge level, let them share knowledge, but don't force them into helping each other, especially on the work front. That is when things started to fall in line. Slowly and gradually, we realize that launching a product is not as simple as just having the code ready, it's a completely different ballgame. I would never advise anyone to launch a product just because they have the code ready. They need to have the wherewithal to actually go and market that product, to make sure that it stands against the competition that it has in the market.
And that they're able to back it up with additional development, additional marketing, or additional money that they put behind marketing that product. That's a huge amount of effort. For the reasons of marketing, I would say that I would not value the pool that I have at my disposal. I would first evaluate whether there's a huge opportunity, whether I can do the marketing, whether it fits into what I'm doing right now. And if all of those questions I answere in affirmative, only then I'll think about venturing into it.
Brad: That's actually a really good point, because yeah, having the product ready to go and to start selling it is maybe 50% there, right? I think a lot of people forget about that. Not only do you have to have a way to sell it, you to have the marketing, the content, you have to have great videos and screenshots. You have to be ready for support because people buy it and guess what? They're going to need help. And if you're not responsive, they're going to want a refund. So you've got to have the support angle. It's a lot. Even releasing a plugin on WordPress.org for free. It might be 75% there, but there's still that documentation and read-me file and screenshots and all that stuff you have to get ready. The different assets for the listing on WordPress.org that a lot of people overlook.
That is honestly what can really set you apart from a really polished, premium, awesome looking plugin, to one that no one's going to download because it looks like you just threw it up there with a little bit of text. There's no screenshots, it's not a nice looking image or cover image. I think you've nailed it by saying the teams need to be separated. That's where we've stumbled from time to time in our attempts.
We have a couple of premium plugins, but it's certainly not a significant part of what we do. The few shops and agencies I know that do both, that's exactly what they do. They have separate teams, they share knowledge, they're not separated completely, but they're sharing knowledge. But they're not working on the same stuff. And that eliminates the option of just grabbing someone and saying, hey, this client needs some help. Go help them. If they don't know anything about it, how are they going to help, right? So yeah. Good point.
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What Makes a Plugin a Bestseller?
Bob: One question I did want to as. You have four WooCommerce plugins, and I'm familiar with all four. I've written about them and they're all excellent plugins,. Which one do you feel is the most popular or one of your big sellers? And why do you think that is?
Rohan: In terms of numbers, I would have two best sellers because they are almost neck and neck. One is the enquiry plugin, that is the Pro Enquiry plugin. I believe the reason why it is higher on the revenue side is because it is backed up with a free plugin. So it's a freemium plugin, right? People have easier entry into the plugin. We typically tend to see higher conversion rates from freemium products. If you have a good, free product, then people will buy the premium version .
But the product that I believe is very close to this product in terms of revenue numbers, and has the maximum potential is the Customer Specific Pricing plugin. It is a dynamic pricing plugin. When we started with that plugin, we did not really know that dynamic pricing is what the idea of the plugin is called. So we named it Customer Specific Pricing, because we were thinking about what about those long time customers to whom you want to offer things, and make sure that they remain your patrons for a long time.
So that plugin, because it's unique and deals with pricing, it has the biggest opportunity, because then it can fork out into multiple different directions. It could be combined with offers, it could be combined with discounts, and if you really look into it you could typically create a funnel flow. So it will tend to have the maximum opportunity, and we are forming up our plans for the roadmap and vision of the product.
Bob: Yeah, and I've never really had anybody say the reason behind a freemium plugin being exactly the reason you explained. As far as they can be the bestsellers. I've always wondered what that transition or if it's a majority of people that use a free plugin that end up segueing into the premium version. Obviously from your statistics or your analytics, that is a case, especially for that one plugin.
Rohan: Yes, absolutely. There are things that you have to do on the plugin side. You have to make sure that it seamlessly transitions to the premium version of the plugin. People may think they want that feature, but decide, maybe next time. But then because they keep seeing it, they then feel like, oh maybe I should get it now. I like this plugin.
Bob: That follows suit of what I do. I would say that the majority of every plugin I start with that is free and has a premium version, I end up moving to it sooner or later, because something entices me. If I've used it over a period of time, I obviously like it. But then my needs change and now I need to move to it. Sometimes it's a matter of days were I get a free one in and I say, oh man, I should have just bought it in the first place because I needed this and this. But the free plugin is a nice way to get a taste of it.
Rohan: That's right. In fact, the thing you will hear is people are looking for things that they can trust. When you deal with people, you will deal with people you trust. It's the same way with products. When you trust someone or something, it brings an advantage to the person who is selling things to you. Because you are familiar with the interface, you're familiar with the way it is laid out. Now you are thinking to yourself, well who's going to take the hassle of me actually trying out a new plugin. Or if they have a completely different interface then I'm used to this, let me just continue with this one.
Bob: I love hearing all the different aspects to your business, and Brad touched on a lot of it. Is there anything else Brad that you really wanted to ask before we move into announcements and wrap up?
Brad: Yeah. I'm curious. How'd you learn to build plugins again?
Bob: That's a good story.
Rohan: We learned to build plugins by buying the book that Brad had written. And I'm so grateful to him for having written that book, and it is because of that that we actually started our journey on the plugin part, thanks Brad.
Brad: That's great. Thanks for sharing. And thanks for supporting the book. I love hearing stories like that, whether it's to help a business to grow, to do new things or just because people were interested in it. But that's the reason we wrote it, and are writing the second edition, which will be out next month. So it'll be a good refresher for everybody to check that out and get some of the newer stuff like Gutenberg and rest API and all that good stuff. But yeah, thanks for sharing. That's cool to hear.
Bob: Yeah, it's good to hear that he's been so successful and the book was part of it. It's too bad you can't attach an audio to the book because you could use this for a nice intro. So when you build that site for your newest book, which I'm sure you're busy doing. NOT. But if you do, we can pull out this and you will have that a nice intro.
Brad: Yeah. That's great.
Bob: Well, as we dive into announcements here, I wanted to have Rohan share something he has going on over at WisdmLabs, and it's very timely with what's going on right now. So why didn't you tell us a little bit about that, Rohan?
Rohan: So, I know these are tough times for everyone out there, and we wanted to participate and do our bit for the community. So when we were thinking about it, we realized that at this point of time, a lot of people, especially the not-for-profits, healthcare government organizations or any small business could be facing financial problems, right? They want to achieve something in life, but they may not have the wherewithall to actually go and make investments. And at this point of time, even a few hundred dollars would matter.
So we thought hard about how we could offer a cost benefit to people who want to use our products. We've launched a support package where we are offering 50% cost benefit on all our products, be it eCommerce or eLearning. And the related services like consultation for those products for anyone from not-for-profit healthcare, government organizations, or any business in general who have a need. All they have to do is just fill out a form on our site, and we will honor that request with a 50% mark off on our prices.
Brad: That's awesome.
Bob: Yeah, and that's a great opportunity because what you are offering is exactly what people are looking for right now. The learning management and online commerce. You're offering the jewels. It's like this is what's in demand.
Now the thing I wanted to touch on is as far as announcements and we aren't perfectly timed with the release at the time of recording, that's WooCommerce 4.1. It's a minor update, but there's a couple of things that will be worth mentioning. So I'm going to go ahead and push that on over to the next episode, where Jonathan, myself and our guest will chat a little bit about that. So we'll leave it at that. And what I'd like to do is have Brad go ahead and wrap up the show.
Brad: Yes sir. Let's do it. So let's definitely thank our sponsors. MyWorks QuickBooks Sync for WooCommerce. We use QuickBooks. Trust me, any way you can automate getting data into QuickBooks, you should because it's already a beast as it is. Because the last thing you want is more manual work on your side. So check that out.
Also WP Security Audit Log. Take a listen to episode 49 if you want to hear a little bit about the product and the business and how it works. I'm a big fan of logs because it can can really help with the finger pointing when something goes wrong. You can just say, oh it's in the log, this is what happened. So that's a good one as well.
We also want to thank WooCommerce.com as our community sponsor. We love everything about them, and that's why we do this show. You can also subscribe to the podcast on your favorite app. Sign up for Woo news posts or podcast. Become a friend of Do the Woo, which I'm now a friend, right Bob?
Bob: Yeah, you are a friend, you've been a friend for a long time, but now you're officially a friend.
Brad: We were just kind of unofficially friends, but now it's official.
Bob: And also WisdmLabs is a friend too. So I'm surrounded by friends today. This is just amazing.
Brad: Hey there we go. So check it out. If you go over to BobWP.com you can check out all the episodes, and there's a link if you want to become a friend of the show.
Bob: Excellent. Where can people find you on the web, Rohan? Where's the best place for them to connect with you?
Okay, so I have my Twitter handle that is @rohanthakare, and you can also always visit our website. That’s WisdmLabs.com and check out our products and services. We will be happy to help you if you need any help with WooCommerce.
Bob: Excellent. Well, Brad, that is a wrap. And thanks, Rohan, for being on the show.
Brad:: Yeah, thanks so much Rohan.
Rohan: Thank you. Thank you very much.