The journey from client work to product is always interesting. But add the running of a plugin that brings marketplaces to WooCommerce sites to that mix and it makes for a great conversation.
A Chat with Jamie Madden from WCVendors
In episode 45 of our podcast, Mendel Kurland and I chat with Jamie about:
- How Jamie started early on in eCommerce and grabbed onto WooCommerce in its beginning days.
- His transition from client work to product work.
- Why Jamie’s transition was a bit easier but also the efforts it took to succeed.
- What makes a quality product.
- Is the idea of running a marketplace a pipe dream for many?
- How commissions for marketplaces is one of the most critical pieces.
- The art of pricing and offering a lifetime membership.
- The importance of focusing on your long-time customers.
Thanks to our sponsors
The chat with Jamie was two-pronged. A mix of learning more about moving from client work to product (WCVendors) and the import aspects of running a marketplace on WooCommerce.
Jamie moved into the WooCommerce space in the early days, having dabbled in other eCommerce solutions. His WordPress days go back further, to the beginning of WordPress.
At a point he decided to take over a plugin, dive head first into some serious hours and leave his agency work behind. Although he made the transition sound painless, and parts were, he did share more about his own experience and the advantages of taking over a plugin that had an existing customer base.
Jamie talked about exactly what a quality product is and how that needs to be presented to your prospective clients. In addition, we chatted about running a marketplace, how some people have a false illusion of the ease and success of it, and one of the most critical pieces: getting your commissions right.
Lastly, Jamie shared with us his strategy for pricing over the years as well as his offering of a lifetime membership, which is frequently debated in the WordPress space.
- WooCommerce/WordPress AMA March 26, 2020
- WordCamp San Antonio: March 28-29 2020 Online
- BobWP Brand Turns 10 Years Old
Where to find Jamie on the web:
Bob: Hey everyone, we are back. This is BobWP and Do the Woo, episode 45. I'm joined by my very smart, brilliant, intelligent cohost, Mendel. How you doing Mendel?
Mendel: Wow, Bob. I'm doing good. Thanks for that. A lively intro.
Bob: Well, you know, I got to say it as it is. I don't beat around the bush. So we are continuing with the podcast and everybody is dealing with stuff all over the world. It's a crazy, stressful time for a lot of people, but we hope we can bring a little bit of conversation into your life. How are things with you Mendel?
Mendel: I'm doing well. We have internet, we have coffee. That's basically all I need. So yeah, things are good and having warm conversation, like what we're about to have, that's good.
Bob: Alrighty. Before we meet our guest, I just want to give a shout out to our three sponsors. Of course, WooCommerce. You can check them out WooCommerce.com. They are our community sponsor and we love Woo. You know where to find them.
We also have FooEvents.com., a ticketing plugin for your WooCommerce site. They have a really cool offer to give our listeners, so make sure you stay tuned in for that.
And WPSiteSync.com, where you can sync up your local or staging site with your live site and do updates without having to worry. This is a newer a service, launched about a month ago. Check those out and you'll hear more about our sponsors later in the show. But for now, let's move right into this.
I'm pretty excited to have our guest, Jamie Madden. Jamie's joining us from the other side of the world this morning. How are you doing, Jamie?
Jamie: Oh, I'm doing great, thanks. It’s a bit dark over here. So we're pretty much on the opposite side. We're in lockdown, but other than that things are trucking along. Everyone's changing how they working. And some of us are doing much the same. So yeah, we're doing well over here actually. It's a bit warm. The rains are coming soon, so that'll be a nice change.
Bob: And you are where? Let everyone know where so they can have some context.
Jamie: I am based in Saigon, also known as Ho Chi Minh city in Vietnam, and I've been here almost four years now.
Bob: Very cool. I know Jamie from where I reached out to him, the WooCommerce Slack channel. He's very involved there. Let's start with just what does Jamie do with Woo.
How Jamie Does the Woo
Jamie: I am the founder and lead developer of WCVendors. It is one of the oldest marketplace plugins for WooCommerce. It turns WooCommerce into a multi-vendor store so people can register to sell products on their eCommerce shop and then you can take a commission on every single sale. I have been doing that now for over six years. Before that I was building WooCommerce stores. I started out as an agency building online stores for people using WooCommerce. Then one of my customers said, Hey, I want to make eBay but I have the budget of two shoestrings, what can you do? I'm like, yeah, we can do this with Woo, and I did. So it was a six-month project that ended up taking 18 months due to the customer moving the goalposts a few times.
But that actually ended up being the groundwork for what was eventually WCVendors. So that was a fork, just like WooCommerce was of another product. The guy who was developing it decided that he'd had enough and just ceased development. So myself and another guy, we took over support and then I had been running a modified version for a long time, and we released that for free. So everyone who used the old product, could now use ours for free. Then a year later we released the pro version. And we've been clocking along with that for the last five or so odd years. In July, 2014, we launched WCVendors and then WCVendors pro was October the next year.
The Journey to WooCommerce
Bob: Cool. So how did you get into WooCommerce?
Jamie: Well, I've been in WordPress space since B2 evolution days. So when I saw some posts from Matt on the forums, I started following his development of WordPress and I was building sites and stuff with WordPress for quite a long time. I built my first plugin before custom post types were available. And I used the same evolution a lot of people did. They started with OS Commerce or Magento, and then moved over to WordPress based solutions. So I tried WPeCommerce. I tried a Shopp plugin. That was out for awhile. And then Jigoshop. And then from Jigoshop I found WooCommerce and it was actively developed, had a great team behind it, had really great themes that you could use with it, which was really difficult in the early days finding a really good theme and plugin that worked well together. Because everyone was kind of a cowboy in the early 2010's. Everyone wanted to reinvent the wheel instead of just playing nicely with each other.
And WooThemes was the first to make a good selection of different off the shelf themes you could use to build various kinds of online shops. So I started as an agency and then after we got this plugin out the door, I was like, actually, I don't need the agency anymore. I enjoy working on a single product and getting it to evolve over time. So I’ve been in the Woo and WordPress space since both have been around.
The Transition from Client Work to Product Work
Mendel: I'd love to know more about that transition. It's pretty interesting. A lot of people want to do the transition from client work to product work, right? Because that's the diamond in the rough. If you strike it rich on a product, man, everybody thinks it's smooth sailing from there and you can just sit back on the beach and sip Mai Tai's I'm sure that's what it's like, isn't it?
Jamie: Well, it kind of is for awhile. The transitioning from agency to product was pretty much solving a problem that a lot of people had. Like with almost all good products, you don't just build something and then hope people will use it. You're building it for a client or for an internal tool that you use, or something like that. If you're solving something and saving someone time and money, there's a high probability that it will be successful. And we were really lucky that we had about 5,000 existing users from the old product that we're able to scoop up, which made the transition much easier. And then we only had one competitor back then. So we released it for free and we said, let's see how it goes. We kind of rocketed and then every seven months or so, another competitor would come along, they would do something a little bit different.
A product is really good because you can focus on solving a problem really, really well. A lot of people try it with agency work, there are so many goalposts and so many projects you can track and so many things that can go wrong. With product, so long as you've got it planned right and you've got a good roadmap ahead of you, you pretty much know where you're going.
But the biggest thing that most people don't do is get your sales and marketing sorted from day one. Which we didn't do. This year is the first time I've spent any money on marketing. For the last sixish years, it's just been organic growth. We are just really lucky we're in a niche that worked. But so many people when they build a product, they've got this great product, but they don't know how to get it out to people. And I think that's the challenge for a lot of us small independent developers. How do we take this awesome product and get it in front of people so they can know the benefits as opposed to just selling them a bunch of features, which, as a developer, I'm very bad at doing. We just give them a table of check boxes and say, Hey, this does all of this stuff. That's enough for you.
Was the Transition Really That Easy?
Mendel: So you're making it sound really easy. Okay. You're making it sound like, yeah, we just transitioned to this product and it was great. I want to know what happened in that transition? With your team, how did that play out? Did you keep the team? Did you change the team? What were some of those lessons as you were transitioning from agency to product.
Jamie: I was a sole person agency with some contractors and they were all working on design, the stuff I should know how to do because I have degrees in design, but I don't do it. I was able to just close the doors on my agency and walk straight into my product. I was running both at the same time for about a year. When I test anything I do, I always keep my income for one and then see if the other one's going to work. So I was working about 60 hours in my agency and about 20 hours on the plugin, 80 hours a week. And I did that for a year and I was pretty burnt out after that time, but then the numbers lined up and the 20 hours was earning more than the 60 hours, so I said, okay, 60 hours you can go away.
I pretty much packed my bags and went traveling for 22 months. And it was beaches and good times because I was able to have a product that worked really well. I had support staff in place. I did have a business partner to begin with, but due to some health issues, he left the company. So it started out with two of us, one doing support and one doing all the development. I didn't have to worry about support unless it was a programming-related support question. it was a good balance with a little, two-person team. Then we eventually hired a second support person. Now we're up to two support people that work two part-time shifts. And it's just me and one other developer and we run the run the the setup like that.
It was a lot of work to begin with. Going from our free product, we had no monetization strategy except for the freemium model, but we didn't know what that was at that time. We'd seen plenty of companies like Yoast and a lot of those in the early days that were working with a successful freemium model where you give a decent free product and then give even more in the pro product. It took me six months to write the pro product for release and that was 50- or 60-hour weeks, just nonstop working to get the first one out the door and then rapid releases and very late nights to fix glaring bugs that I introduced into the early versions.
So friends, one thing I can recommend is if you are going to transition to products, get automated testing on day one. Get your testing in there as early as you can so that you have a very smart testing system. Make sure you're not releasing a product with holes in it.
Product Quality is the Name of the Game
Mendel: If you want a good product, yes. If you want a sub-par product then don't worry about the testing.
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Jamie: Yeah. So the biggest thing was the shock of the difference of going from having like 15 balls in the air to just two. So the free product and the paid product, they're a hybrid, so it's really just one focus. And when you change from having to run to client meetings and draft proposals and things like that and you're changing hats so much more often when you're an agency as opposed to a product, you still have client support, you still have the business side of things. But generally speaking, they can be easily managed as opposed to chasing up clients for lack of payment or change of contract and things like that. But with the product, it's really good to listen to your users. But that doesn't mean you have to do everything that they ask.
So the thing that I've always thought about when you're building the product, is how many people would this feature help? Is it going to help the most amount of people possible? Or is this going to help that one person who asks for it? Pouring 10 or 15 hours into a feature for a single user might not be the best use of your time when you might take something that's a lot smaller and be like, Hey, everyone's going to benefit from this. So let's do 10 smaller features as opposed to this one really deep feature.
There's a lot of different kinds of management you have to do. I think it's a lot more succinct building products than it is working across projects. It can get very samey working on products. The great thing with working with clients is that pretty much every client's requirements are different. So you'll get constantly challenged. When you are on a product for say, six years, it can get very samey, which is something some people can handle it and others will just be like after three years, I'm answering the same questions all the time. I'm building the same product. How do I do more? For me, a lot of that comes down to just making suremy users succeed.
So this year we're doing a big focus on education, because that's something in our space that seems to be solely missing, is how to educate people to succeed with your product. There's plenty of people that just tell you how to use a product, but there's not many people that say, let's sit down and work out how to make sure that your business succeeds. That's what I'm going to be doing this year to make my product journey continue in a fashion that will help me and my users. Quite a lot, I believe, anyway.
Is the Marketplace a Pipe Dream?
Bob: Yeah. I was going to ask, because the nature of your product is a marketplace, I was wondering if a lot of the users get starry-eyed and think, well, I can create a marketplace because this sounds pretty cool. All I have to do is find a bunch of people to put their stuff on my site and I sit back and take a percentage. Wow, that sounds like it's not a lot of work and probably really easy to do. Do you find that with your users, and I'm sure there's several who have a plan and have thought this through, but are there ones who look at it as a fairly easy thing to do? Because I don't have to create a product. I don't have to create a service per se. I can market other people's services or other people's products.
Jamie: Yeah. So we have three categories of users. I guess we've got what I call the installers, that will just install the plugin and be like, yeah, I'm going to get rich. They think it's 2001 again where you can do that kind of half-ass project and it will succeed. But those days are long gone. Kids, it's gone. There needs to be a plan. You need to understand that the technology of it is off the shelf. There are literally two dozen solutions to build a marketplace. But what you need to understand is that it's not just installed and call a couple of your friends. Marketplaces have the chicken and egg problem. Do you get customers first or you do you get vendors first? I think in the five years I've had only three pre-sales questions where the person had a full plan. That's it, just three. Everyone else is just coming along.
The biggest issue I see is that people don't spend any time planning their launch. They don't test anything beforehand. They take too long. They take three to six months to launch a site. You can literally build a marketplace and have it online in a day. That's the functional part of the marketplace. It's the easy part. But it's having all of your user documentation so your vendors know how to use your system. You can't just assume that the people you're onboarding, your customers and your vendors, are going to know how to use the system. You need to provide training facilities. You need to have support systems for your customers and your vendors. And so many people forget about all those very important support mechanisms that you need in any business and in a marketplace. It's critical to have those things in place before you start.
The other big issue we see is that they are all comparing themselves to the billion dollar marketplaces that are out there. You're not an Etsy. You're not an Amazon. You're not an eBay. Sure you can have that functionality, but you need to niche down to your specific community. The very successful marketplaces we see are ones that already have existing communities around them. Be it just a simple support forum like a BBPress forum or something like that.
Key Component for Marketplaces: Commission Percentage
One that we have is called Musky Chases and they they make fishing flies and it's quite popular. Another one is called Oz Robotics. They do robotics and STEM education things and have thousands and thousands of vendors that work on just robotics parts. They have some amazing customers, but they've got a plan and this is their third marketplace that they've worked on. So they're pretty good at it because they've got experience. But so many people think I can just install this plugin and I'll be rich in a week.
And then they set commission system. Their commission rates are extremely low, like 7%. When 3% of that is your payment process fee being taken out, are you really able to make this work on 4%? What's your hosting costs? What is your marketing budget? What is the average cost of your product? Is it $1,000? Like how can you live on 4%? It should be 40%. When people see these smaller marketplaces like WooCommerce.com, they take 40% and everyone's like, oh, that's a lot per commission. I'm like, no, it's not. They have to have a sustainable business. And the only way you can build a sustainable business is to focus and get your charging right. So many people say Etsy does 6% ,so I'm going to do 6%. No, you can't do that. You need to look at what's in your space. If you're not going take much of a commission, then work on listing fees. Work on a monthly recurring charge. Just charge everyone $9 and you have a membership system instead. Because there are so many different marketplace models out there and we support a lot of these different models: scaling commission systems, membership systems. We're about to introduce the listing fee system so you can charge per listing. So there are a lot of ways you can monetize your marketplace without spending too much, but you need to figure out the chicken and egg for your environment.
A lot of that is building your audience before your launch and making sure that people know who you are. That could just be getting a forum up. Another good example would be a farmer's market that would translate very well into an online marketplace because they already have the infrastructure for it. But then you see other ones with no plan at all. And you wonder why. I guess it's the same with a lot of online businesses in general. Print-on-demand is very popular at the moment where everyone just thinks they can slap a few designs on a t-shirt and they're going to be the next t-shirt mogul, not realizing that there are 100,000 other people doing the same thing. What is your unique aspect? What is the benefit that you're selling that's going to make people want to use your marketplace over the other ones? It's that unique selling point most people haven't thought of.
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The Art of Pricing and Lifetime Memberships
Mendel: So You talked a bit about pricing for the people using your your plugin or your platform. I'm curious. Can you can talk a little bit about how you priced your product and how you made the determination between what would go in pro and what would go in free? I'm also super curious about your lifetime membership because that's something that’s hotly debated in some circles, whether to do that or not. Can you talk a bit about how you chose how to price?
Jamie: Okay. So when we first launched, it was actually $99. It was an introductory price of $99 just to get all of our existing users on. The big difference between free and pro was that pro has a complete frontend dashboard. So the vendors are locked out of the WordPress admin area. You've got a fluid experience for your vendors. Instead of them having two completely different interfaces to manage their products, and then to see what their stores look like, they just have a single environment that's nice and clear cut. It's supported all of the built in features of the product management system. And the pricing was based on what our one competitor was priced at. They were at $129 at that point. So we wanted to come in at around the same price. Back in 2015 there weren’t a lot of people still doing lifetime-only and we didn't want to do lifetime. We wanted to have an annual license.
So that was a conscious decision from the beginning because our marketplace product is so complicated and there are constant updates and features. Having the one-off price wasn't going to be sustainable at the low end. So we did an annual price and we've had two price bumps in that five years, which isn't much. We're now at $199 a year which is middle of the range for us in the competition. There are some cheaper and there are some more expensive than us. But the main original factor for us was to make sure that the pricing wasn't really high and it wasn't really low. Because I've always believed that if something's too cheap, there's a reason and if something's too expensive, there's also a reason for that.
We thought we had a good product and we wanted to get as much mass adoption as possible. So we did a two-month introductory price and then we bumped it up to the normal $120. Then we went from $129 to $149 and then $149 to $199. And then we had that annual system up until the middle of 2018 when I wanted to reward our successful marketplaces by providing a lifetime option for them. What you're paying for with premium WordPress products are your access to updates and support. If any of our premium customers have a specific thing that they need, then we'll go out of our way. Even if it's not covered by our normal support policy, we'll do what we can.
The pricing for our lifetime was effectively threeish years of a normal license. And three to five years is the lifetime of most online businesses. So I thought if you make it past three years, then you're doing really well and we should reward you for that. That was my thinking of why I wanted to introduce a lifetime license. It's also not on the cheap end. It's just under three times our annual price. And if you are a long-time user, we'll even give you a credit on your previous year.
So I have considered removing our lifetime license because we don't actually get that many sales. Just like with WooCommerce, removing the 5 and 25 licenses. And people go nah. But the data shows that no one's buying them. So why add them? Because then you're just adding a step into the purchase process. If I were to remove the lifetime license, there's only one click and you're in checkout. So I liked the idea of reducing any barriers to purchase, but I still think that there are people who will purchase the lifetime because they believe in their business idea. And I think out of all of our lifetime license holders, we have two that have asked for support after year one.
Take Care of Your Long-time Customers
Mendel: I think the reason is really cool instead of you trying to upsell somebody to get crazy cash in your pocket. Your motivation seems the other direction. Help out successful people who have been loyalists and have been supporting you along the way. I think far too few businesses reward loyal customers rather than looking for that cash cow acquisition, you know?
Jamie: Yeah. I always believed that the people that have been there since day one, the ones who actually send us an email and say, “Hey, myself, my daughter and my husband all have day jobs because of your product. And now we run our business out of our home.” That's pretty awesome that we're able to change someone's life to the fact that they're not working in hospitality anymore. They're running their little marketplace at home and they've been doing that for three or four years and being able to say, “Hey, you know what, here's a lifetime license and you guys can just keep on going.” Cash injection is nice. And once a year we run a promo where people can get the lifetime license at a pretty steep discount. But that's only for our birthday.
I don't discount our product very often. Because I want to reward the people who stick around, more so than the people who are trying to save a few bucks and then leave. Because the product is a whole business in a box. It's not a small product. It's got a lot of moving parts and it takes a lot of time to learn how to get it to work as you require. It's the same with WooCommerce. WooCommerce, on the surface, you can be up and running in a couple of minutes.
But to make your shop sing takes time, and it takes a lot of investment and testing, making sure that you're on top of things because a plugin that you may have used for years may just fall by the wayside. But because you've been using it for years, you just keep it instead of actually taking the blinkers off and saying, “Hey, what's out there? Who's giving good support?” I haven't been in customer support my entire IT career. But customer support is paramount. It is the number one thing. If you have great customer support, then if your product is skipping a few beats it won't matter as much. So long as you're honest with your customers, you're quick to respond and you're quick to fix it. If you can get those three things sorted out I think most product businesses can really succeed. We've actually had quite a few pre-sales questions where they told us that they selected our product over our competitors just because we answered quicker.
Bob: Yeah. And I like rewarding your customers. It was interesting because I had a client, and this is a totally different circumstance, but a client who I worked with for a good three years — built a site for him and I did coaching. He was somebody who was always willing to pay and he sent me an email, and I hadn't heard from him for awhile. He said, “I need a couple of hours’ coaching. Who can you refer me to?” And he also had a question for me that I might be able to answer. And of course, as he always added, I'm glad to pay you for it. And I thought, Hey, this guy for a steady client for three years. So I just sent him back an email and said, “Hey, you know, I'll give an hour or two of coaching and here's the answer to the question, no cost.”
You look at those customers, and I know not everybody can do that and or at least all the time. It depends on the circumstances. But you look at those customers who have been loyal and they've really pushed you through your business.Yeah, I totally can relate.
I loved the talk around marketplaces because we haven't chatted with somebody on this subject yet in this podcast. So this was good to gleam some of this from Jamie, as far as, what it takes and the pricing.
You have any other questions before we move on, Mendel?
Mendel: No, I just I think it's awesome that you brought up the the idea that people want to get-rich-quick scheme and that planning a little bit can go a long way. Planning a lot can go a long way too, but there are so many people who want to create an online marketplace or they want to trade Alibaba merchandise and drop ship, and don't understand what's going on. I did all the stuff that they say you're supposed to do and and I'm not making any money. The idea of community around all of this is super important. If you have an existing community, then you're probably going to be a lot more successful. Or if you know how to build some community around your product or your website, you're going to be more successful. I think that's a super important point to drive home to people who want to get into marketplaces.
News: Facebook Advanced WooCommerce Group: a New Facelift?
Bob: Well, moving onto news. Okay. No news. Well, that's a weird thing to say in this time and under the circumstances. The only thing I was going to mention is that if you belong to the advanced Facebook group on Facebook, Jonathan, who is one of the moderators, is talking a little bit about the direction of that group. And if you've been thinking about getting on a Facebook group, or already belong to one, you may want to check out one of his posts because he was asking for some feedback on the future of that group. You'll want to do that for sure.
Now over to the announcements. Mendel, why don't you do your one announcement and I have a couple and then we'll call it a day.
WooCommerce and WordPress AMA Today
Mendel: Sweet. Well, in this time where we're all online, everybody's working online. there are a lot of new creators out there. We wanted to give people the opportunity to just ask questions about WordPress or WooCommerce. Get your questions answered in a pretty casual format. So Bob and a few other people from the WordPress community have agreed to join me on Thursday (today) at 1:00 PM central time for a WordPress ask me anything (AMA). You can check out the link to that to sign up ifyouwillit.com/ama and it's free to join, free to listen to us blabber on about WordPress. But hopefully you’ll get some good answers to stuff that you're trying to figure out or you're stuck on. So check that out.
Bob: Cool. Looking forward to that. Also, at the same time if you are super geeky, you can join the WooCommerce Slack chat over on their core channel in Slack. Like I said, a great place to keep up on core. So you have a couple of options, you can either really geek out, talk core, or you can come over to the AMA and ask some basic WordPress or WooCommerce questions.
BobWP Brand Turns 10 Years Old
Lastly, this last week, if you you missed it, my BobWP brand turned 10 years old. On that day, I was thinking about it. We had been in business for quite some time, and I had been in WordPress 3 years. I thought, well, what am I gonna change my brand to? And I guess I could say it was a genius idea, I don't know if it was or not, but it works. So 10 years of that and hoping for 10 years more. I did a big celebration by doing a post. Wasn't that real exciting, I just thought, it’s a different time, things are going on. So the post is a little bit of the story. If people want to check it out, they can find it on my blog.
Well, excellent show. I'm going to have you close out Mendel.
Mendel: Oh yeah. Hey and before we close it out, I just also wanted to mention WordCamp San Antonio is this weekend virtually. If you’ve been craving some WordCamp stuff and your WordCamp has been canceled, or you just want to check out a WordCamp for the first time, I believe it's free to stream the WordCamp this weekend. So join us over there because that should be a lot of fun. Lots of good information. Speakers are still speaking, sponsors are still sponsoring. People are still talking.
So Jamie, tell us where where people can connect with you.
How to Connect with Jamie
Jamie: I'm on the WooCommerce Slack. You can find me on there. I'm usually active all hours in the day. You can also find me on Twitter. My account is @dcwhatwhat. And then the WCVendors, one is twitter.com/wcvendors. We do have a new product coming out soon, which is not marketplace related. It's a new license server. So it’s for people helping developers like ourselves sell and license their products on WooCommerce. So I was shooting for the end of this month, but I think it'll be next month now. But Slack and Twitter are probably the two best places to find me. Cause I'm always there.
Mendel: Fair enough. And I want to remind everybody that this podcast would not be possible without support from FooEvents.com. You can have it over FooEvents.com/dothewoo. and you'll get 100% off a license for a full year of that product. I also want to thank WooCommerce.com and WPSiteSync.com. Check out all of those. Do us us that favor. They provide support to the show.
And lastly please, maybe if you have some spare change, head over to BobWP.com/friends and become a friend of this podcast. Because we're your friends and we'd like you to be our friend. That's it for today. Thank you so much. Thanks, Bob. Thanks, Jamie.
Jamie: Thank you.
Bob: Thanks. See you all later.